ghoti_mhic_uait | Exciting times (especially for those of us living in Lib Dem/Labour marginals)

hmm

hanging parliament

sounds like a plan to me

Blowing them up is so passe.

yeah, and it damages a perfectly servicable building in the process

I'm torn. Obviously I'd like the Lib Dems to be the UK's second party, and the Tories to be consigned to the dustbin of history. But I don't want them to actually get in the way of the current government's proven ability to continually get good things done. A dilemma!

I think it's highly unlikely that there will be a new prime minister on friday (although I do think we'll see a substantially reduce laboyur majority). Isn't it more important to give the right message to Mr Howard?

Hang on. Shouldn't you already have voted? Or did you get a proxy vote?

I never got a vote :(

I'd take issue with your "continually" there. I think virtually all the really good stuff this government did was in their first term, and they have now started doing more harm than good (anything to do with "terrorism" had been handled in a morally wrong way). The only good thing they've done recently that I can think of was some talk of debt relief for poor countries - do you have any other examples?

I genuinely believe that on all the important social issues - identifying sectors of the population that really need help and helping them - Labour's record is spotless. Yes, they have a tendency to appear barking mad on any issue that their friend George Bush is involved with, but I'm willing to believe that international politics in the last 4 years has been a bit of a minefield that no party would have a clear idea how to proceed in.

Whereas, who are Lib Dem policies actually going to help? As far as I can see they are now *tailored* towards siphoning off votes from the middle classes that might otherwise be going to the Tories. And if you're middle class the Lib Dems probably do look like an enticing prospect, but if you're actually below the poverty line with day-to-day survival to worry about, it's still Labour all the way. I have an LJ friend who tells me that in his constituency the Lib Dem candidate is against wind farms, while in the next one along they're pro-foxhunting. And this sums up the Lib Dems at the moment, they're just playing the system, telling people what they want to hear regardless of whether it could possibly make sense in the event of them actually getting into power.

I'll concede that Tony Blair has turned into a bit of an slimy git after 8 years of absolute power, but I see no catastrophe inherent in a Labour government, as compared to some governments of the late 20th century I could mention. It's a shame our voting system doesn't allow us to fix small problems in the way the country is being run without throwing the baby out with the bathwater, really.

Sorry to be tedious, but could you give a specific example of the sort of help you mean? Good news tends not to be so widely reported.

You're right that all the really good stuff happened in the first term, and the past 4 years have been largely conciliation of that (and a bunch of illiberal and warlike stuff).

Some examples of Good Stuff from the past 4 years include canceling debt to Heavily Indebted Poor Countries, and extending anti-discrimination legislation (including extending disability discrimination act and legislation against discimination on sexual orientation).

I wouldn't vote Labour on their current record, but I'd rather see them than the Tories in power, and still have hope for a good third term. With the distractions of the situation following 2001 attacks on the US and fox hunting are out the way there's a real chance to start putting into place future Energy policies, and doing the best we can for Africa. Unfortunately, it's more likely to be dominated by sorting out the future of European politics.

Lib dems are offering better hospitals and better pensions - 2 things known to be the most help to the poor (while the rich don't need to government's help to get health care or live in retirement).

Lib Dems are also offering free university education. And care for the elderly.

The issue I'm hearing most about from the poorer and rougher parts of the city is policing.

These people don't want an ID card, they want more police (oh look, that'll be the Lib Dem policy).

I';ve heard a reasonable amount on pensions (again, the LibDem policy is preferred to the Labour record).

I'm hearing 'we want a better future for our children', and that means more help for university funding.

What I'm hearing from people below the poverty line is 'Labour have failed us'.

There are some people who will say "The government has failed us" no matter what the incumbent government has actually done. Most people, by the looks of things.

I'm informed by sources that I think to be reliable (though maybe I do rely too heavily on the word of Guardian columnists) that this government is the most redistributive of at least the past half a century. And if that's true, it's a great achievement that should be honoured, not met with "get the hell out, you're just as bad as the last lot, let's have a new completely untried party in instead".

I would probably agree with you that Lib Dem policies look better on paper than Labour policies. That's because all Lib Dem policies are a variant on: "In this area we pledge to be much better than Labour." But in reality being in power is a balancing act, and I very much doubt that every single aspect of our lives would be better with a new broom. Until New Labour actually topples over I'm happy to reward what I perceive as its relative success. Certainly things aren't nearly so bad that we need an urgent change of tack, IMO.

Redistributive in the sense of taxes on the rich and more money for the poor? Which particular poor? As far as O can see, the Working Families Tax Credit, for example, benefitted only the middle classes, the people who wouldn't have got benefits before but now do.

The actual rates of pensions and benefits have gone up well below the rates of inflation. This isn't particularly unusual, I know.

Health really matters, and Labour have screwed over our local hospital (Whipps Cross) far worse than the Conservatives did, and in direct contradiction to their comments about it during the 1997 campaign. Our local MP also told people what they wanted to hear in opposition and became markedly less responsive to correspondence as soon as Labour were elected. I also think their approach to asylum has been a catastrophe, and is costing lives. At this point, I can't see myself voting for Labour again for a very, very long time.

LMAO, do you guys just sit in front of computers all day and night? Look around you, SEE what labour has done to Britain, a place we were once proud to live! Before labour got in, I had My own business that was doing very well, I now find Myself struggling to pay the inflated bills that we all receive. How many of you have seen businesses go bye bye during labour? Business cannot afford to fund employees the wages they need with the enhanced inflation and taxes labour have brought to us. How much debt have you got? how much debt did you have before labour, or could you afford to buy things back then? lol. How many kids can read and write when leaving school these days? How many of the teachers can read and write? See much crime around you? You like that? seems labour do! Health, I see money has been increased yearly for the health service at way below the rate it was during the Conservative government, Where's the rest of the cash going? Iraq, well, I agree that something had to be done there, I've visited countries where they have had previous dictatorships, and celebrated 'independence day' with the peoples, In time, Iraq now has a chance! What I disagree with, is the false way that blair went around the whole business, and if anyone wants to have him in court for war crimes, then I for one will back them.

labour have failed Britain miserably, and have done maye too much damage now that any party who gets in will have a major cleanup problem.

A vote for the lib dems is just simply a vote for labour, although I concede that in many local areas they will gain seats from labour, they aint got a hope in hell, and most of their policies will only jumble the taxes around, thus we pay same as we do under labour dictatorship, Whilst sitting back seeing little change with anything else. Conservatives have proved in the past that they can improve Britain, Look at the lifestyle/financial changes brought around in the 70's and 80's. although I admit that Britain has never been in a worse state, whoever gets in is gonna have one hell of a hard time 'Getting Britain back to what we had'.

Someone posted a message about the good labour have done, where is that??? A huge percentage of Britain is now living below the poverty line, and yet you say it's good to help poor countries? Look at home first, once we have a viable business model, we can afford to fund poorer countries.

Use your votes carefully, or live with the repercussions of another labour dictatorship.

Steve!

Less than under the last Conservative government, however

I think the Lib Dems are the only real alternative, and the only party that's not been given a crack of the whip. I'd be worse off with Lib Dem via Income Tax, but I still think it's a damn good idea, as they're aiming to give help to those who need it. Labour failed us, don't get me started on the Tories.

Re: poverty line... We can all change the way things are counted, look at the real world, and not just at figures is a good start to getting a read idea.

If we were to believe the propoganda put forward by blair... Health service would be getting an annual rise above what the Conservatives were, that's not happening, yet blairs figures say it's better? Crime would be getting dealt with, according to blair it is, look in the real world, Employment, real world, businesses are closing shop like rats escaping a sinking ship, leaving employees where? oh yes, living in poverty...

You know anyone living in poverty? or living below what should be an 'expected' level?

You know anyone affected by crime where nothing has been done?

You know anyone who has had to cease trading, or lost their job due to closure?

You know anyone who has had to wait for any length of time even in accident and emergency at hospitals, let alone waiting lists even for consultation.

You know anyone who has problems/long waiting time even getting an appointment with their GP?

You know anyone who now has less 'cash left over' after essential household bills etc?

Answer yes to ANY (most will anser yes to all), then labour have failed you, now look at the lib dems policies, much change? lol

Oh, and since lib dems would plan to bring in 'poll tax', shouldn't the same people who were so much against it when Conservatives first brought it in be fighting the lib dems?

Some of the posts on here make Me laugh, many of you seem to be what are classed as todays 'students' lol, yet can't even be bothered to read up on anything other than a libdem/labour campaign leaflet!

And if (I hope not for this countries sake) labour did get a third term, watch the emmigration figures closely, it's not financially or realistically viable to keep going the way this country has, and many of the people emmigrating will be business owners.

When all the businesses have closed, will employment be the 'best record ever', well if blair says so, I'm sure you'll all agree, lmao

Good grief, you've actually come up with some support for Labour! yes, they've done really well in all the areas you mention, but I'm still sure they could have done better, especially in the second term.

oh, and play nice if you don't want your comments deleted.

I don't know who you are, but I'm prepared to listen. I won't tolerate personal insults.

Personal insults? Not something I do, everyone is entitled to their opinions, so anything ANYONE wants to say is acceptable to Me, although it does annoy Me when people quote non truths and seem to actually believe them (and no that wasn't a jibe at you, simply the way I work with everyone).

Support for labour, one stance... Iraq, sorting out the country needed to be done, as I've said in previous posts, I've seen the results of ex-dictatorships personally, lying to the public as to motives, very wrong.

I take it you answered yes to all the statements? i.e yes you've seen employers close shop, and no new companies taking their places... Maybe the unemployed have already emmigrated in an effort to boost blairs 'unemployment' record?

And since I mentioned poverty in Britain in My first post here, and was replied to with links to some unknown website, here's a little info for you
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=607643
perhaps another new tax would mean these people had more money? lol

Wonder if you're aware that labour are seeking to *again* change the way poverty in Britain is calculated? (currently: households 60% or less of the average income) am sure that any change would shuffle the figures to look nice (just like unemployment, health and education figures)

I hope that many of the posts here have just been a joke, and that you all saw common sense and voted properly!

I notice a post more recent from a guy who admits he's not going to vote, his reasons seem calculated, he's read up, and finds that nothing really fits into what he believes, also admitting that under certain policies of what would probably be his chosen policy that even he himself could be worse off. A balanced educated view. Lets hope more people look at the real policies.

On a lighter note, did anyone see the 3 main candidates on the news yesterday evening? OMG, Liberals didn't seem to give anything, although appeared relaxed. Conservative, looked like he was was on the verge of a nervous breakdown (then again, I am too with the worry of a 3rd term dictatorship!) also repeatedly fell into a campaign pitch on policies rather than answer questions he was asked? Labour, worried look also, though not as bad as Conservative, did anyone notice the way that when he quoted things he knew could be disproved his eyes drifted down at to his right, whilst the rest of the time he looked straight at the camera? (Someone MUST have a recording, or is probably online anyway).

Oh, and you're right, you don't know Me, Name's Steve, I kinda stumbled across this place and found many of the comments on subjects interesting/humourous.

No, I answered 'not as many as under the Conservatives' to every question. Otherwise, i would hardly have considered your arguments persuasive in favour of labour, would I?

I hope that many of the posts here have just been a joke, and that you
all saw common sense and voted properly! Of course, every vote cast is 'proper' voting. Even a spoilt ballot makes a difference. Even a vote for the BNP is a vote.

If by 'proper' voting you mean we voted Conservative, no, of course I didn't. I'm a socialist, I vote Lib Dem.

Exciting times (especially for those of us living in Lib Dem/Labour marginals)

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A huge percentage of Britain is now living below the poverty line

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I take it you answered yes to all the statements?